I’m hesitant to even say what I’m thinking, but since I’ve already been relegated to the flames, what the hell?

The modern church has been largely corrupted and co opted by the surrounding culture. It’s like now the best way to deal is to be *in* the church without being *of* it. That should set off all sorts of alarms, bells and whistles. It just sounds bad. But I want to escape the shallow, paganistic culture of going in order to see and be seen. We have enough problems with sin, that we do not have to create brand new categories and classes based on how good our attendance is at the potluck, fall festival, men’s Bible study and how many cupcakes I donate to the bake sale to raise money for the new church welcome mats.

FTN, if you call yourselves the Five Awesome Guys or anything else, Jesus is still there with you. I have no idea what sort or how much formality exists, but you do see the trips and traps of trying to do anything on a regular basis. And that might be an early principle…resist the routine. I think a lot of us might have overestimated the scope of your group and it looked like you were ready to set up a compound somewhere, complete with wife swapping and automatic weapons! BTW, if you get to that point, email details.

Everything you’re saying I’m doing is the opposite of what I’m talking about. I’m TOTALLY talking about loving and serving those “not like us.” I think you underestimate me, my friend.

And don’t worry, XH. We aren’t calling what we’re doing “church.” After how we’ve trampled that word for so long, I’m kind of glad we’re calling it something else.

Christian love — the love talked about in I Cor 13 — is not the same thing as friendship. It’s not “I like you, so we’ll hang out.” It is doing for others what they need, through the sacrifice of self.

If things are so bad where you were that you feel you have to leave, then isn’t that bad for those left behind? I mean, leaving behind the question of whether or not where you were can be considered “church” in the absolute sense, what about everybody else? Shouldn’t those who both see things wrong and are motivated to do something about it help the others, instead of just abandoning them and leaving them to whatever it is their fate will be?

Christian love, like Christian unity is a God-centered thing, not a man centered thing. Christian fellowship was always, from the beginning, far more devotional than it was social; and found it’s fullest expression in the giving of oneself. Acts 2 and following, having a common purse and all that.

To say, “The church isn’t giving me what I need” and then leaving is missing the entire point of church. One should be asking not “what does this church give?” but instead, “what does this church need?” Not where do you get the most, but where can you give the most.

That is why schism is always wrong. God didn’t have to tell you to love and be in unity with those you like who think like you and agree with you. He said, to have unity across those boundaries, through mutual communion with Christ Himself. It is those you left behind that you are told to love and serve, not those you took with you.

Besides which the entire idea of going off on your own and starting your own thing and still calling it “church” makes a mockery of what the Apostles built on Pentecost and following. It misses the point of the whole thing.

80% of the institutional church is no more of a “community” than a college calculus class is a “community.” Just because it MEANS community doesn’t mean it IS a community. Digger’s 16 points he mentions here do very little to form a community. You were always one of the biggest critics of our churches! One minute you are saying all of our mainline protestant churches are wrong, then you say we can’t leave! Or do you really mean, I can leave, I just have to join yours, or be damned?

It’s great you’ve found plenty of “community” in your local church, that’s fantastic. It just seems odd you would say that church means community, but when I say I’m desiring more true Christian community than what I see existing currently, that it’s damning and putting my soul in peril.

For someone who espouses it so, I’m rather perplexed by your lack of community and your lack of unity.

I’m baffled that my desire to help my brothers and sisters, to be helped, to serve people in the community, and to worship intimately with my friends has evolved into something bad.

Is there room for any more talk of love in all of this discussion? That’s what I began my original blog post on, and any talk of it in and out of “the church” seems to have flown out the window long ago.

Which is the problem with the belief in sola fide. No, professing belief in Christ is NOT enough, as even the demons believe. And shudder. It requires action.

Part of the required action is unity — as expressed by Paul in I Cor 1 as “all speaking the same thing.” Should there be diversity so that “one should be able to find something they like”? God forbid it! We are called to be one. To be unified. To all speak the same thing. Doctrinal diversity is anathema. Lack of conformance to both orthodoxy and orthopraxy damns.

Digger, as you said, I’m already a member of the body of Christ. So all this talk of “leaving the Church,” or “splitting from the Church” is baffling to me. I’m doing no such thing! I *am* the church, as are my brothers and sisters, and I still think everyone is misusing the term.

But I did want to agree with your “personal empire” sentiment. At some point it might seem that I advocate breaking away and starting your own thing. And that is simply not true, because I don’t and I have not. I think that there should be enough diversity out there, one should be able to find something they like without spinning off their own.

On the other side, if I am a Christian and have professed my faith in Jesus Christ and the power of His resurrection, am I not already a member of the body? This is where we get into trouble because someone is going to start saddling me with various preconditions, like circumcision, a special diet, special mandatory festivals, washing my hands after I pee, and all sorts of other oppressive rules. Where does it end?
D.